Surprising Lessons From Top Creators: Insights from Jennifer Phan, Founder & CEO of Passionfroot

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:00]:

One thing you could definitely say about Jennifer Phan is that she definitely and desperately wants her business, Passionfroot, to become successful.

Jennifer Phan [00:00:10]:

I can be like a tiger mom who's incredibly impatient about the progress of our company and how that reflects on our day to day execution.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:22]:

Her tiger momness comes across strong in the steps she's taking to ensure that Passionfroot succeeds as a product.

Jennifer Phan [00:00:29]:

What is important for us is that it's creating not an additional overhead for creators who, anyway, have already super busy lives, manage everything from end to end, but something which kind of really gives them the peace of mind.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:47]:

At Passionfroot, Jen and her team are working to create something they call a creator operating system.

Jennifer Phan [00:00:53]:

We see that. One of the big, big problems, again, is that most of creators are alone by themselves, or they might have an assistant or a small team, but how do you leverage and scale yourself as an individual, right, as a personal brand? So, for us, it's really a lot about systemizing the work of creators. And that means they can set up a storefront, they can basically showcase the things they offer. So it's really kind of the shopify for creators.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:01:25]:

Ready to find out more about Jen and Passionfroot and sponsorships and the creator operating system? All right, then. Let's get into it right away. Hi, my name is Yong-Soo Chung, and I'm a first generation Korean American entrepreneur living the American dream. I started Urban EDC to cater to enthusiasts of everyday carrier gear. I also own two other successful ventures GrowthJet, a climate neutral, certified third party logistics company for emerging ecommerce brands, and Spotted by Humphrey, an online boutique curating dog goods for good dogs. Through these three ventures, my business has generated over $20 million in eight years, and I'm here to tell you how you can do the same. On this episode of First Class Founders, I'm sharing my lessons and takeaways from my interview with Jennifer Phan, co founder and CEO of Passionfroot. I chose to bring Jennifer on the show today not only because she's building an exciting SaaS or software as a service company, but because she's building her entire company within the creator ecosystem. Passionfroot builds itself as a creator operating system that allows creators to handle sponsorships, collab requests, bookings, and payments in one single place. I was quite excited about having Jennifer on the show.

Jennifer Phan [00:02:50]:

Thank you so much. Really looking forward to the chat.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:02:52]:

Over the course of our conversation, Jen and I spoke about a wide variety of things, such as her switch from the VC world to being a creator, the art of securing sponsorships for your content, the science of securing sponsorships for your content, and finally, the creator operating system. We also spoke about AI. And the creator economy and how the rise of AI. Tools would impact the creator economy, specifically, in terms of sponsorship, which you can hear if you're a Premium member of First Class Founders. You can also listen to the raw, unedited version of my interview with Jennifer in the private subscribers only feed. Become a premium member of first class founders by signing up at firstclassfounders.com/join. I'll put the link in the show notes as well.

Jennifer Phan [00:03:37]:

Hi, I'm Jennifer Phan. Let's get down to business.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:03:44]:

Jennifer Phan was born and raised in Germany, which is where Passionfroot is also based.

Jennifer Phan [00:03:49]:

So we're also based in Berlin. I'm one of the founders of Passionfroot, and before that worked in the venture capital industry as an investor until I then at some point which to become a creator, and then at some point to become actually a founder.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:04:07]:

Jen is the second person we've had on our podcast who have been part of the VC world. The first one was Justin Gordon, the Director of Marketing and Communications at Vitalize VC, who was featured on episode 26. I'll put a link in the show notes for you to check that episode out. But Jen and Justin made exactly the opposite switches. Justin went from hosting his podcast to joining Vitalized VC, while Jen switched from her VC job to becoming a creator. And this switch happened in 2020.

Jennifer Phan [00:04:40]:

2020 was an interesting year for a lot of people, I think, which led you question a lot of things before. And that's when I made the switch.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:04:50]:

Then most people who quit their job during the Pandemic did so after having epiphanies and deciding to pursue their passions. In Jen's case though, she loved her venture capital job, but she quit for entirely different reasons.

Jennifer Phan [00:05:04]:

And again like 2020, a lot of things happened right? Like the pandemic Asian hate crimes. Black Lives matter. Climate crisis.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:05:14]:

The situation weighed heavily upon her. She knew she had to find a way to channel all these emotions before they consumed her.

Jennifer Phan [00:05:21]:

I think for me, I was just looking for a way to channel somehow those emotions or make sense of what's happening in our society and world. And I found it in writing.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:05:33]:

She started a monthly newsletter called Tech for Good, which is an aggregation of a very specific kind of European tech news, environmental and social impact.

Jennifer Phan [00:05:44]:

So basically highlighting and covering everything in the startup world which has a positive impact on our society and environment. And I loved it and I loved that creating content gave me a way to creatively express myself.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:05:59]:

The newsletter ran for six editions between November 2020 and April 2021. In each of these editions, Jennifer would post a collection of carefully curated links to articles and news she had found and provide her opinions on each of them. The more time she spent crafting her newsletter, the more she realized that the creator space and the creator economy are based more on meritocracy. Having worked in VC prior to this, it came as a major revelation for her especially in venture capital.

Jennifer Phan [00:06:28]:

It's really an industry which is kind of defined by gatekeeping. And what I love about the creator economy is that it's exactly the opposite. It doesn't matter your background, your financial situation, your educational background, as long as you show up and you put yourself out there, you can make it.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:06:52]:

She loved writing her newsletter. The response to her newsletter had also been quite enthusiastic. She seriously contemplated quitting her VC job and pursuing being a creator full time. But first she needed to check what the financial prospects were before she could fully commit to it.

Jennifer Phan [00:07:10]:

And then I started to talk with a lot of creators, people who have a newsletter, podcast, YouTube channel, and just ask them simple questions like how do you make money? How long did it take you? How do you actually manage all of that? And at some point realized that I could create a much bigger impact by empowering this new generation of entrepreneurs. And that in the end, how we founded Passionate froot.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:35]:

On some level I feel that Passionfroot coming into existence was somewhat inevitable. Jen was a VC prior to becoming a creator. While looking to monetize her creative efforts, she realized that there was a gap in the available solutions and her VC sense automatically kicked in. In fact, Jen pointed out an interesting parallel between the VC and creator space to me.

Jennifer Phan [00:07:56]:

Being a creator allows you to kind of think like an investor as well, which means as a VC investor, you're building a portfolio of different bets, right? You can do a lot of smaller bets because at some point, one of those bets will work out and you can as a creator, actually apply exactly that kind of investor and portfolio mindset and place a lot of smaller bets, try a lot of different platforms where you create content on it's not all, basically all eggs in one basket, as you said.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:08:31]:

That's an interesting way to look at it and I'm calling it our first takeaway of the day. Takeaway number one. Creators and VCs are quite similar to each other. Both prefer to place smaller bets and hope that one of them works out big. We all test different platforms to figure out which platform matches our voice. With each of these tests we're placing a small bet on whether or not it will work out. And just like VCs, we don't need all bets or in this case all platforms to work out, we just need one. And it was this same logic that led Jen to start Passionfroot. It was an idea, it was a smallish bet and it was definitely worth a try.

Jennifer Phan [00:09:11]:

We started with nothing, so we raised actually the first venture capital round from creators. So 30% of our angel investors are creators but also founders. And the rest of the funding from one of the top tier VC funds. And then we really started to build.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:09:31]:

Jen went directly to the creators to raise the first round of funding. She took the idea to the people who are likely to have the greatest stake in the matter and asked them to fund it. And they did. Jen envisions Passionfroot as something that extends way beyond helping creators monetize their content through sponsorships.

Jennifer Phan [00:09:49]:

It's a very broad vision, but it's really kind of creating this destination for creators where they can monetize, manage, but also grow and learn. So for us, it's not only about our technology or our tool itself, but actually creating also a media company and a creator studio alongside. So that's why we have a podcast called Creators on Air as well, where we interview creators who then share their journey and learnings because there is so little knowledge about it. We have a newsletter as well for creators. So it's really about being a creator ourselves and then building this media company alongside the product. So I think that's something which we wanted to do early on.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:10:38]:

In other words...

Jennifer Phan [00:10:41]:

For us it's about becoming the all in one stop shop, but also really the operating system that empowers creators and creator businesses.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:10:50]:

The operating system that empowers creators and creator businesses. And Passionfroot has already begun that process of building this into a product little by little.

Jennifer Phan [00:11:00]:

So for us, it was about picking sponsorships and brand partnerships as the first wedge to start off, because that's where we also saw a lot of creators trying to stitch together and cover together a lot of no code tools or back end systems to kind of try to because there are just no tools that were built for them. So for us it was picking basically a niche, let's call it like that, to then slowly down the line, obviously build something which goes into our vision. I think that was one thing.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:11:34]:

One of the things Jen is also doing to achieve this big vision is embedding herself and Passionfroot into the creator community. The creator space currently is incredibly collaborative and all creators are well connected with each other. For Passionfroot to leverage this collaboration is practically a no brainer.

Jennifer Phan [00:11:52]:

So, as you mentioned also I think creators are deeply well connected. So I think also in terms of finding creators or growing also, it's really about a lot of word of mouth, right? Like building a really good product which people just love and then share with others. That's something which is still part of our DNA.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:12:15]:

And the creator community seems to have responded to Jen's attempts quite enthusiastically as well.

Jennifer Phan [00:12:21]:

Enough creators are using Passionfroot to really manage their own sponsorship, right? So we're not in marketplace.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:12:28]:

So the obvious next step was to ask Jen whether any insights had emerged from all these creators using Passionfroot to manage their sponsorships, specifically in terms of what seemed to work for attracting sponsors to your content. Jen had three specific insights to share. One, have a unique and specific niche.

Jennifer Phan [00:12:49]:

What we've seen is that creators who do get inbound requests in is a they have a very specific niche. Sometimes it's much more important to have a niche and it's not so much about the numbers of subscribers or followers, but actually to position yourself in an interesting niche than being super broad and super big.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:13:12]:

Two, build a specific audience, making it.

Jennifer Phan [00:13:16]:

Very clear what your niche is about. So what kind of content are you creating? Who's part of your audience? Who's your reader's profile? Is it coaches? Is it business owners? Is it people who are interested in marketing marketers? The more specific you can get, the better.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:13:34]:

Three, showcase your numbers to potential clients.

Jennifer Phan [00:13:37]:

So the basics such as open rates for newsletters, how many subscribers you have so that's something which was doing or which is helping a lot of creators to land sponsors.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:13:49]:

You might recall how much I stressed the importance of owning a niche over and over again in several of my previous episodes. One episode that immediately comes to mind is episode 25, How to Turn Your Side Hustle Into a Million Dollar Business, in which I said all of these thought leaders, they did something incredibly simple and incredibly basic. They chose a niche and they worked towards owning it. That's what you need to do. Own a niche. You know what? That is definitely the second takeaway of this episode. I know I've said it enough times, but I genuinely cannot stress it enough. I feel. Takeaway number two pick a niche and own it. Because clearly Jen agrees with me. Passionfroot chose an unoccupied niche, sponsorships and brand partnerships and began building a product that had clear demand in that niche. And if you haven't yet figured out a niche that you can occupy, you should probably queue up that episode I just mentioned and listen to it next. Because I've explained step by step in great detail how you can start a side hustle that earns you your first million dollars. But first, I want to say a few words of praise for our sponsor for this episode, Riverside.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:15:13]:

I'm really excited to have Riverside on as a sponsor because we record all of our interviews using, you guessed it, Riverside, and I love everything about it. My favorite feature is how everything is recorded locally to optimize sound quality. Because as you all know by now, we take high quality audio pretty seriously around here. If you're a video podcaster, their video features are fantastic as well, allowing you to create short form video content to promote your podcast across your social channels. We don't do this quite yet, but it's something we plan on doing in the near future. Riverside is completely free to sign up and try out for your 1st 2 hours. Then, when you're ready, use the code first class to get 20% off any paid plan and trust me, you'll love using Riverside as much as I do. So go ahead and sign up for free using the link in the show notes. While you do that, I'll queue up the next part of this episode.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:16:19]:

So where were we before that short detour? Yes, I was telling you about Jen's insights from Passionfroot about what it takes to attract sponsors to your content, have a unique niche, build a specific audience, and showcase your numbers to potential clients. There are other ways to attract clients too.

Jennifer Phan [00:16:36]:

Other ways are to add previous partnerships. So if you had already, that always kind of create or add credibility. And then most of the time, your first sponsors is in actually your own followership.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:16:52]:

Previous partnerships and looking at your current audience are two great ways of landing potential sponsors for your content. And when you really think about it, what else is having a Patreon subscriber but a sponsor for your content? So the model has always been there, it was just waiting to be leveraged in this specific manner. Jen also stressed the importance of making it abundantly clear that you're open to accepting sponsorships and making it as easy.

Jennifer Phan [00:17:19]:

As possible for sponsors to not only just reach out via a Twitter DM, but actually understanding exactly what they're getting, understanding the workflow, and making it incredibly easy to just submit basically their interest. And then again, really showing that you're actually open for business.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:17:39]:

That raises another somewhat obvious question when is the right time to be open for business, that is to look for a sponsor? Is there a specific subscriber count that serves as a benchmark for reaching out to sponsors and saying, hey, I currently have an audience of X with Y metrics, would you be interested? Are there specific numbers for X and Y?

Jennifer Phan [00:18:01]:

I think newsletters around like 8 to 10k do already pretty well. So that's where we see a lot of creators doing Y in terms of sponsorships, having almost a weekly sponsor, and then up to 20 or 50K obviously, or something, which is pretty good.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:18:20]:

For podcasts and YouTube, the numbers were slightly higher.

Jennifer Phan [00:18:24]:

And I think on YouTube, what we've seen again, depending on the industry of vertical there, but 20,000 subscribers is already kind of the first starting point for a lot of creators where they get inbound requests from sponsors. So that's a good starting point. But yeah, anything up to already, I think, the sweet spot.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:18:47]:

However, these numbers weren't hard and fast, she warned me, because she has seen newsletters and podcasts have sponsors before they even started. Case in point, their own podcast.

Jennifer Phan [00:18:58]:

We actually worked with Riverside together before we even put out our first podcast episode, we had zero subscribers. So again, it really comes down to your niche, what kind of target audience you're addressing, what kind of value you can give. So I think, again, numbers don't matter too much if your positioning is clear.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:19:23]:

It's all about positioning. Whether you're putting out a newsletter, a podcast or a YouTube channel. What it comes down to is what we just listed as our second takeaway a short while ago.

Jennifer Phan [00:19:36]:

It really comes down to your niche, your vertical, how professional you are, how streamlined your workflows are to give also the partner just a good experience, right? And not so much necessarily about the huge follower base you need to bring more. Also, the engagement is oftentimes much more important how many people click actually on it.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:00]:

So even if you have a smaller newsletter, podcast or YouTube channel, you can still attract sponsors if you're catering to a specific niche, have built a great audience and can show great engagement on your content. I asked Jen for an example of a successful creator who has done something along these lines, that is, a creator who positions themselves really well to attract sponsors, hoping to see if there were any lessons to be learned in that regard.

Jennifer Phan [00:20:25]:

I'm not sure if he's been on your podcast already, but Arvid Kahl, for example, I think is doing it really wild.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:31]:

Arvid Kahl, Episode 24. Life Changing Wisdom with Arvid Kahl: From Selling a SaaS Business to Becoming a Creator. In my conversation with Arvid, he did mention that his newsletter was currently making $4,000 a month. Some of it, maybe all of it was coming through sponsors found via Passionfroot. Jen very helpfully deconstructed the situation for my benefit.

Jennifer Phan [00:20:56]:

I think his newsletter has now by now 10,000 subscribers. He started using Passionfroot when he was around 8000, but I think he started monetized earlier.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:21:07]:

So he is right in that 8 to 10,000 audience range that Jen mentioned earlier.

Jennifer Phan [00:21:13]:

He has a Twitter audience as well, which is more in the hundred thousand, I think almost.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:21:18]:

And he has built a good audience too.

Jennifer Phan [00:21:20]:

And what he is doing while though is that he understands that you need to repeat and share and show that you're open for business. So he's actively promoting that. He offers sponsorship slots almost on a weekly or bi weekly basis. So what he does, for example, is creating urgency. Hey, I have an open slot for this week, only one slot left. That's something which creates urgency.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:21:45]:

That's one of the insights that Jen shared about attracting sponsors for your content show that you're open for business.

Jennifer Phan [00:21:52]:

The second thing is making it very specific. I have an upcoming podcast episode talking about mental health, which company wants to sponsor it? So there are definitely companies which are more relevant for it, right? So I think creating urgency and making it specific is something. And doing this also on a consistent basis are, I think, three tactics which we see is doing really well for our vid.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:22:17]:

It seems like the key takeaway here is not only to show that you're open for business, but to be both active and specific about it. Takeaway number three. When looking for sponsors, actively promote your availability, make it specific and create urgency. Arvid's example might be somewhat specific to his niche and his audience, especially when you look at the numbers involved, but it is general enough to work for content creators of all shapes and audience sizes. On YouTube, the trend seems to be indicating that creators are putting themselves in specific verticals, like productivity tools for creators and creativity. Latter one largely fueled by the rise of AI and companies around AI and AI tools.

Jennifer Phan [00:23:02]:

So a lot of AI companies are popping up, obviously every day, distributions burnt for them. One way is to work with creators. So if you also create content which is kind of about productivity, or how you can use chat GPT for certain aspect of your business, then that's something which is definitely also interesting for a lot of companies right now who are in the AI space.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:23:28]:

Chat GPT, no discussion or conversation is safe from it. Even this one. I spoke to Jen about how she sees AI in conjunction with Passionfroot, and, well, you're going to have to become a Premium member of First Class Founders to find out what she said, because that is exactly what you'd be listening to right now if you were a Premium member. One of the perks of the First Class Founders membership is the premium content that I craft specifically for my members.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:04]:

For example, for this episode at this very moment, premium members of First Class Founders are listening to Jen explain how she sees AI and Passionfroot working together hand in hand, because both of them are working towards the same goal helping creators focus on their creation rather than secondary matters.

Jennifer Phan [00:24:23]:

I think that's kind of the very core of our mission as well.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:28]:

Jen is absolutely sure about one thing, though. AI is not about replacing creators or their jobs.

Jennifer Phan [00:24:35]:

It's not about replacing jobs or human beings, but it's more about empowering them right with the right tools.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:42]:

But she's also very clear that AI is here to stay.

Jennifer Phan [00:24:46]:

And I mean, I think it's very clear that this is happening and this is not going away.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:50]:

She points out that there are creators who are already leveraging this in certain ways, details in the premium segment.

Jennifer Phan [00:24:57]:

But even there, what you can probably see is that there is going to be, I wouldn't call it consolidation, but you still need to find then a way to differentiate yourself.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:25:06]:

The whole thing is quite interesting, and you can listen to all of it on the private members only podcast feed. The First Class Founders membership also comes with a ton of other perks. For instance, members of First Class Founders also get early access to podcast episodes, bonus episodes, including the entire raw, unedited interview, the ability to ask me anything, and much more. Head on over to firstclassfounders.com/join. I'll put the link in the show notes.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:25:40]:

But now let's get back to Jen and talk about what advice she would give young entrepreneurs who are about to embark on their own business ventures. I asked Jen if she'll be willing to share some of the lessons that she learned during her journey with Passionfroot. She began with this candid observation.

Jennifer Phan [00:25:58]:

I'm trying to think of lessons which are not so cliche, but in the end so many things are true. Like doing things that don't scale in the beginning is something which we're definitely doing.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:26:09]:

And then immediately jumped right into the deep end. Speaking about how much of a grind user acquisition can be, especially when it relies on shipping useful features out to users quickly making that happen while also staying true to the grand vision of becoming the creator operating system is a difficult task.

Jennifer Phan [00:26:28]:

She said, sure, we have this vision of this perfect functioning, incredibly wild design product, but the reality is that you need to get something out, obviously fast. You need to get it into the hands of users, you need to get actually a feedback, so what's the fastest way to do it? So that's definitely something we've done, which where we learned from it and in the end then take those learnings and actually then put it into the product.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:26:55]:

The other lesson she had learned for herself during this journey is establishing and staying true to our principles of focus and prioritization. Because for an early stage company like Passionfroot, both time and resources are quite limited.

Jennifer Phan [00:27:09]:

There are thousand things we want to do and we could do, but we don't have enough time and not enough people and not enough resources. So it really comes down to focus and prioritization, which I think was something we really learned or we're still learning. If you can do one thing today, what would it be? What really moves the needle?

Yong-Soo Chung [00:27:29]:

Which surprisingly also applies to creators when you think about it.

Jennifer Phan [00:27:36]:

I think the opportunity of being a creator is that opportunities are endless. You can do so many things, you can do everything, but that's a risk also. You can do everything and you can get sucked into everything, right? So I think it's really around like what we're still learning again and struggling with is focus and prioritization, what will bring you to the at least next milestone to keep moving forward. So I think that's something which kind of hopefully, I mean, works as our North Star. I think North Star is something which is also, for the creator journey, something very important.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:28:10]:

I think that qualifies as our fourth takeaway for this episode. Takeaway number four as a creator, always prioritize the things that will help you move the needle. Finally, before we conclude this episode, I want to share her response to a question I asked her. It was a question which she probably didn't expect but definitely dreaded. There is a distinct possibility that it also maybe plays constantly on her mind every single day. Was there ever a moment where you felt like Passionfroot might not survive?

Jennifer Phan [00:28:44]:

I think we're on a very good track. I think it's this roller coaster, right? Like one day it's like amazing, everything looks great. The other day is when a user churn is like, oh my God, how are we ever going to make it? I think just kind of keeping the balance there. So for now, I would say it's not about thinking. I mean, I think it's a constant thought we have or you have as a founder, until you find product market fit, will you be able to survive? Is this good enough? Are you moving fast enough? I think that's kind of thoughts you definitely have, and I think kind of the mental health thing is challenging as well, right? As a founder, as a creator.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:29:27]:

Turns out she uses an interesting mental model to deal with all this uncertainty. It's called the rule of one thirds.

Jennifer Phan [00:29:34]:

It kind of goes back to when you're embarking on a journey and when you're building something up, when you're doing something incredibly hard. You're supposed to feel one third of your time great, one third of your time and one third of your time future. And that shows that you're out of your comfort zone. You are growing, you're learning. And sometimes some days are shitty and then you just show up. And then it's just one of those shitty days and that's okay.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:30:10]:

I love the rule of one thirds and how it efficiently puts everything into perspective. Having a bad day. Chalk it up to the rule of one thirds and just show up. It's okay. Tomorrow will be a better day. Everybody has bad days. All you have to do on bad days is just show up. Before we wrap up today's episode, let's quickly recap the four takeaways of today's episode. Takeaway number one creators and VCs are quite similar to each other. Both prefer to play smaller bets and hope that one of them works out big. Takeaway number two, pick a niche and own it. Takeaway number three when looking for sponsors, actively promote your availability, make it specific and create urgency. And last but not least, takeaway number four. As a creator, always prioritize the things that will help you move the needle. You can find Jen on Twitter and reach out to her via the Passionfroot website.

Jennifer Phan [00:31:09]:

We're on Twitter and website is passionfroot. me and Passionfroot. You write it with two O's, like the froot loops.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:31:23]:

All right, that wraps up today's show. In the next episode of First Class Founders, I speak to David Hooper, the founder of Big Podcast. David is a true veteran in the podcast space and gives us a masterclass in audience building in our next episode. Don't miss out. And one last thing. Before I go. If you're a new listener and you enjoyed this episode, you can follow the show by going to Firstclassfounders.com and clicking on the link that matches your preferred podcast player, like Apple Podcast or Spotify. Or you can also add your voice to the show by leaving a message on Firstclassfounders.com. For example, what did you think of this episode specifically? And when you get a chance, could you also head over to Firstclassfounders.com/review and leave us a five star review? It really helps boost credibility for the show, which means more incredible guests for you. And why wouldn't you want that? I'll leave a link in the Show Notes to leave us a five star review. Thank you so much. If you want to connect with me, you can hit me up on Twitter at yongsoochung. I'm pretty active there and would love to connect with you. You can find links to all my social accounts in the Show Notes. I'll see you on the next episode of First Class Founders.

Jennifer Phan [00:32:41]:

One thing people don't know about me, or only a few people, is that I'm an incredibly impatient person.