$250 Million Dollars in Sales: Colin Chung's Copywriting Secrets Revealed

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:00]:

It turns out that Colin Chung and I don't just share a last name, we also share a love for board games...

Colin Chung [00:00:10]:

I've been playing designer board games since 2003, uh, back when Catan first got big.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:14]:

He's played ALL the expansions, just in case you're wondering..

Colin Chung [00:00:17]:

Oh, back in 2003, I played all of them. So I played, what was it? Knights and something, Knights and Barbarians. And I played Seafarers as well. But we quickly moved on from it, uh, because the RNG in that game was just like horrible. If people ask me, instead of Catan, what should you play? Terra Mystica is the game you should play now. There's no RNG in that game. If you're just starting out, you can't go wrong with Pandemic and the basic ones. Santorini is a nice cute one. AZO is a nice cute one.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:46]:

I'm actually also a board gamers. I actually have Santorini. Yeah, I have Santorini. Um, Terra Mystica, I know is a good one. So you play miniature games, it looks like. But these days? He is more into...

Colin Chung [00:01:06]:

Crazy historical war games where you simulate famous, battles from all of history. PAX Premiere. And that's basically about the first Afghan war. As a player, you can ally yourself with the British or the Russians or the Afghani tribes, and you realize, like, holy sh*t. We can't quit them.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:01:24]:

Colin's love of board games might seem surprising. But, when you connect it with what he does for a living, it starts to make perfect sense. Strategy board games such as Catan, Santorini, Terra Mystica, and others are perfect if you love delving deep into a subject - in this case, history. So, what does Colin do for a living? Well, Colin is a direct response copywriter and the stuff he has written and consulted on has driven an estimated quarter of a billion dollar in sales! Don’t believe me? Okay, then consider this. Over the last 15 years, his clients include: Agora, Jim Kwik, John Carlton, Brian Tracy, and Ava Jane’s Kitchen. He’s the unsung hero behind many of YOUR favorite brands. So, what are the key ingredients that make an amazing sales funnel? And perhaps more importantly, HOW did he exactly land these big time clients? His answers will surprise you. Hi, my name is Yong-Soo Chung and I am a first-generation Korean-American entrepreneur living the American dream. I started Urban EDC to cater to enthusiasts of everyday carry gear. I also own two other successful ventures: GrowthJet, a climate-neutral certified third-party logistics company for emerging e-commerce brands, and SpottedByHumphrey, an online boutique curating dog goods for good dogs. Through these three ventures, my business has generated over $20 million dollars in 8 years and I'm here to tell you how YOU can do the same! On today's episode of First Class Founders, I am sharing my learnings from a wonderful conversation I had with one of the best copywriters in the business - Colin Chung. Colin has hired, trained, mentored, copy-chief'd, and written direct response copy (DRC) for 15 years.I decided to invite Colin on the show because a) he shared the same last name as me, b) I wanted to dive deeper into how he writes these amazing sales funnels that has generated a quarter of a billion dollars in sales, and last but not least, c) I was curious how he landed these big-time clients for his business in the first place.

Colin Chung [00:03:51]:

Thank you. Thank you for having me here. So, yeah, I've been a copywriter for 15 years now. I train, I coach, I hire, I mentor, I copy-chief, and I've written copy. Like you said, I've done it for Agora, Jim Kwik, Brian Tracy. I've worked with a lot of big, names in the financial industry as well. Some of them you see on TV, like CNBC or Fox business. Between 2014 and 2020, I was the main teacher for John Carlton's simple writing system. And that's John Carlton's copywriting program.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:04:26]:

During our conversation, Colin and I spoke about various aspects of copywriting, such as- his copywriting journey over the years. finding and getting into the right rooms, how freelancers can benefit more from the right rooms than from sales funnels, as well as his three-step framework for designing the perfect direct response copy. Colin also shared his thoughts on the differences between content, copy, and direct response copywriting and how he deals with clients who insist on making modifications to his copy AFTER he has submitted his work to them - all of which will be made available in an extra segment included in the special ad-free version of this episode, available only to our premium members.Become a premium member of First Class Founders by signing up at firstclassfounders.com/join - I'll leave a link in the show notes! Go ahead and open that link in a tab, while I get this flight ready for take-off!

Colin Chung [00:05:32]:

Hi, I'm Colin Chung, let's get down to business.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:05:36]:

Back in 2008, Colin Chung found himself being laid off from eBay.

Colin Chung [00:05:37]:

So, July of 2009, I got laid off from Ebay. I had enough severance. And because I was a manager, I had more severance. I had a sabbatical I never used, I had paid time. Um, and basically, I had a ten month runway. And back in 2008, there was only so many. You can be an SEO guy or you can be like a paid traffic guy. And both of those things were purely left brain stuff. And I couldn't do that because I did a bit of day trading in 2005 and it burnt me out within two months because it was all numbers and data. So I needed the creative aspect of it as well. And if you guys know anything about English literature, you're basically bullsh*tting. So, like, you take a poem that's maybe 20 lines long and then you bullshit for 5000 words about all the different meanings and the metaphors and what it symbolizes. And I was able to do that very well. I actually got a piece of junk mail, um, saying I could make six figures, like working on a laptop on the beach.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:00]:

Most people would have discarded it immediately, without a second thought. But Colin was intrigued.

Colin Chung [00:07:02]:

Most direct response copywriters in my world know that piece of junk mail. "If you can write a letter like this" letter. It's from AWAI. It's one of the biggest well known copywriting training programs in our world.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:11]:

Colin's research instincts kicked in and he began looking up details about the program that the 'junk mail' was trying to sell him.

Colin Chung [00:07:24]:

I study the family trees of anything I get into. So I love figuring out who influenced who, and who they influenced. I started doing a ton of Internet research and figuring out who else was a copywriter? So I looked up with the names of, like Garrett Hall, John Carlton, Jim Rutz, Clayton Makepeace, David Deutsche, David Garfinkel, Domen Dan...

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:44]:

Diving deep into research is something that comes very naturally to Colin. For example, even when he was beginning his journey into appreciating jazz music, he did something similar.

Colin Chung [00:07:53]:

In high school, when I got into jazz, um, I got into Miles Davis at first, like everybody else, and then I go, okay, who influenced Miles Davis? It was Charles Parker. Okay, cool. Who influenced him? And then you kind of like, you create this chain, this network, this family tree, of all the different types of people. What I love about copywriting is it's it uses both your left and right brain. You have to be creative, but creativity by itself doesn't mean anything if it doesn't actually make money for your clients. So there's a left brain aspect to it where where it's measurable. So, if you put up a sales letter or a funnel, it has to convert. If it doesn't convert, then you're not gonna hired again. So I love both aspects. It's a it's a performance, but there's creativity involved as well.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:08:49]:

In some ways, Colin is the personification of advice that Sam Brown gave us in episode 32.

Sam Browne [00:08:54]:

Spend a lot of time, however you do it, journaling or thinking about or or whatever, about what you would like your work life to be. And so what I mean is sometimes I see people identify an opportunity to make a dollar and they'll dive into that. And, you know, a year goes by or 2 years, and they realize they've accidentally committed themselves to something that they don't really care about that was just a means to an end.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:09:21]:

Thanks to the severance he received after being laid off from eBay, Colin had ten months to figure out what he wanted to do next. He spent those ten months researching the field as a result of which this 'copywriting thing' he picked out for himself ended up working out really well for him. There's a useful lesson in here for those entrepreneurs who haven't yet begun their journey and that is... LESSON NUMBER ONE: Spend as much time as necessary to figure out what you want to do with your life. As it turned out, there were a lot of aspects to Colin's life that ended up being key to his decision to dive into the world of copywriting. The most important among them was probably his academic background in English Literature that he described, of course. But there were other things - small moments, skills, talents - that ended up being additionally helpful too.

Colin Chung [00:10:12]:

I think I have the advantage of being a really great eavesdropper. So one of the things that my first mentor said was like, hey, you capture conversational English very well. It's because I watch a [BLEEPED]-ton of TV. I love watching TV and movies, so I understand how to recreate that conversational tone. So I did, um, door to door, um, sales when I was a kid or a charity. I did a bit of multilevel marketing, so I understood how to do cold calls.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:10:40]:

Put all of this together, and you see that Collins' life was primed for a jump into the world of copywriting at that point. And he decided to take the plunge.

Colin Chung [00:10:59]:

So I basically created this whole MBA for myself, where I learned everything about SEO, everything about traffic, everything about building a funnel, everything about copywriting. I wasn't interested in just being a copywriter. I want to know how this whole Internet marketing thing worked. But copywriting was a thing I picked out of all those different things that needed to happen in order to create an online business.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:11:23]:

And that was how Colin's copywriting journey began. Colin took the plunge and signed up for various copywriting courses. But, merely learning wasn't enough. He needed to land clients. In terms of being a founder, he was starting to develop his product but he had no customers for it yet. And, to get his product to market he would need to get in front of the right audiences who would appreciate his copywriting talent. As a newly-minted copywriter, Colin tried a lot of ways to drum up business.

Colin Chung [00:11:48]:

I set up a sales page and I threw pay-per-click traffic at it. So, like Google, pay per Click, I had a lead gen funnel that sent you a free report. And I spammed that on every online classified known to the Internet at that time. That included, like, Craigslist, GG, Dig, all those old classifieds. Surprisingly, I got clients from that. I did cold DMs and emails, uh, so, like, a whole bunch of throwing spaghetti on the wall.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:12:16]:

That got him some business. But, Colin's copywriting business really took off when he discovered the RIGHT room. That's R-I-G-H-T, 'right room'. And I'll tell you more about it in just a minute. Before we do that though, I want to take a minute and thank my sponsor for this episode (pause) Growth Tribe. I have a question for you. Are you interested in building a one-person business? With plenty of no-code tools and AI out there, it’s easier than ever to start a business on your own and sell it. But, where can you go to learn how to build a successful personal brand and build a profitable one-person business?That’s where the Growth Tribe newsletter comes in.Every Saturday, Sohaib shares tips and strategies that will help you build your Personal Brand, attract your first 1,000 true fans, and start your one-person business.I’ve been following Sohaib’s creator journey for a while now and I can personally attest to how amazing his content is.And guess what? It’s completely free to subscribe.8,000 entrepreneurs have already joined Sohaib’s Growth Tribe and that number is accelerating. So, go ahead and sign up for free at growthtribehq.com. That’s growthtribehq.com - I’ll leave a link in the show notes as well. Okay, now let's get back to Colin's story. Before that short break, I was telling you about how Colin's business really took off after he discovered the 'right room'. Simply put, the RIGHT room is essentially the RIGHT kind of audience for your product. ...or, in other words, a room is simply a collection of people who are interested in what you might have to sell. And the reason why they are called the 'right' rooms is, you guessed it, because there are also WRONG rooms. Anyway, John Carlton's Mastermind turned out to be a "right room" for Colin.

Colin Chung [00:14:35]:

But it wasn't until, um, I joined John Carlton's Mastermind that I started leapfrogging and getting better clients. And what that means is in every community. There are always many niches or cliques or communities in every industry and you can figure out what that niche community is and you can get inside and you start navigating it and, uh, influencing it and figuring out who are the movers and shakers, who are the people or intermediaries in that community. Who's the alpha dog in that community. And you start connecting with the right people and you impress them. You start becoming part of that community, and you just get better clients because you're part of that community.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:15:10]:

And you impress them, you start becoming part of that community, and you just get better science because you're part of that community. We've seen this concept come up before on this podcast. Remember Jeremy ends in episode 28? He referred to this fun on on 2 while talking about the e for exposure part of his EAR$ framework. "Find one way to show up where your people are are already directing their attention and then, you know, provide value in that place." But Colin takes this one step further. Most entrepreneurs look for their potential customers in just 1 or 2 corners of the Internet. Then build around their needs looking for that elusive product market fit. Well, guess what? Colin is telling us now that even within the same niche community, there are right rooms and wrong rooms. If you're trying to build an audience in the wrong rooms, good luck trying to build a product for them. Let alone find product market fit. Instead of banging your head against the wall trying to force something that isn't working, go take your skills to another room and find your real tribe. I love Colin's perspective on this. Getting into the right room is incredibly important. In fact, it is the first bit of advice that Colin gives to anyone who asks him for it.

Colin Chung [00:16:26]:

Whenever a freelancer or aspiring copywriter comes to me and goes, hey, what's your best advice? It's figuring out where those communities are and learning how to build that family tree.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:16:38]:

You know what, let's mark that down as... LESSON NUMBER TWO: Figure out your right rooms and find a way to get inside them. That said, just getting into the right room isn't always enough. Because sometimes, even though you think you are in the right room, you might just be... the audience for someone else's room.

Colin Chung [00:16:44]:

There's a lot of discord servers where they're meant to be worshipping the guru who built them, you know what I'm saying? So those aren't really helpful for getting clients either, because it's obvious the guru who built that discord server is doing it so that he can upsell you to other things. And everybody is just like, worshipping this guy or talking about his stuff. But you're not really learning how to get client you're not getting clients from that.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:17:12]:

So, make sure that your RIGHT rooms are actually the RIGHT 'right rooms', if you know what I mean. To underline this idea further, Colin gave me the example of a market I was intimately familiar with - tech startups and VCs.

Colin Chung [00:17:34]:

I would assume there's tons of small little groups of venture capitalists, private equity, angel investors, and you just have to find the right rooms. Like, if you get into A16Z, or like, uh, you get joined what's that, um what's the Paul Graham one? Yeah. If you get a Y combinator, that's the best right room you can get into between 2010 and 2015, right?

Yong-Soo Chung [00:17:50]:

There is, of course, an argument to be made here that (a) not everyone in tech has a product that A16Z and YCombinator might want to invest in and (b) they both are incredibly tough rooms to get into. But, he is also absolutely correct because if you do get into them, then they might be the perfect 'right rooms' for a tech startup. Because once you get into an A16Z or a Y Combinator, the opportunities just open up, as many of my friends in the tech world can attest! But, coming back to Colin, getting into the right rooms was definitely one way of finding new clients. I wondered if he also had other ways to attract new clients, like a sales funnel on his website.

Colin Chung [00:18:42]:

I don't think building a funnel for yourself as a freelancer is necessarily a great idea for landing, uh, clients. A funnel, to me, is paid traffic or email to a sales piece, to an order page. That, to me, is what a funnel is. And we could be talking about the same, um, thing, but using different terminology. But for me, funnels are like traffic, sales piece, order page. And I don't think it's a good idea for freelancers unless you need to be public to do that kind of funnel, it makes no sense. It depends on what you're doing as a freelancer. If you're a Twitter ghostwriter, by all means, build a huge following that shows that you can actually build an audience so that you can sell your ghostwriting services to help them build an audience. If you're a direct response copywriter and you're looking to land those 8, 9, 10-figure clients in the direct response world, they're not reading your blog, they're not reading your Twitter, they're not reading your email newsletter. There's no reason for you to be building a funnel. Your main job is to get into the right rooms, find where they're at, and once you get into the right room, um, other people within that world will talk about you, and you'll get referrals from that world. They're not reading your blog, they're not reading your Twitter, they're not reading your email newsletter.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:20]:

Wait, what?! When I heard this, I admit, I was…thrown off a bit. Haven’t we all been told to show off your work on social media, build in public with your audience, and write your newsletter consistently each week to earn your audience’s trust, which then will lead to you landing your dream clients? Colin is going against conventional wisdom here and I absolutely love it! Instead of putting your work out there publicly on social media for your potential clients to see and possibly hire you, he’s actively looking for the right rooms to get himself into. Why? Because the types of clients he’s landing are 8, 9, 10-figure clients. And they rarely come to freelancers like him through funnels. It is usually he who ends up going to clients and that's why getting into the right rooms is so important.

Colin Chung [00:21:09]:

Most clients at the upper level are not joining funnels. They're talking to their friends. Like, if you're running an 8, 9, 10-figure business, you're not jumping on funnels to find the next copywriter. You're talking to your friends who are also 8, 9, 10-figure business, uh, owners like, hey, who did you use last month? Who wrote that sales letter for you? Hey, that funnel is working really well. Who wrote it? That's how it works in that world. Mhm and I would assume, um, like graphic designers, uh, JV brokers, or, uh, It. People are the same. Like, hey, who's your tech person? Can I borrow him?

Yong-Soo Chung [00:21:41]:

Essentially, to grow his freelance business, he relies more on building a solid reputation and word-of mouth referrals to make things happen.

Colin Chung [00:21:43]:

But how you generate that word of mouth, I mean, that's the magic, right? It's how you are as a person, how you interact with other people. It's how you read the room and good know who to talk to and who to impress and who you can safely dismiss.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:22:04]:

So, putting all of this together, it turns out that the formula for growing his freelance copywriting business is to combine these two elements - getting into the right rooms and building a solid reputation. Let's make that our THIRD lesson for today. LESSON NUMBER THREE: To grow your business, build a solid reputation in your right rooms. To prove our point, Colin even admitted that he’s not joining these masterminds for education. It was simply to get into the right rooms to kickstart his business.

Colin Chung [00:22:37]:

When I joined John Carlton's Mastermind, one of the funniest experiences I had was like, you're not teaching me anything that I didn't read in your courses. And maybe that's my fault for being your typical straight A student where I read everything and I memorized everything because I was in the room with him and he would give me advice and I was like, dude, you wrote this like ten years ago. You're just repeating words to me. I didn't join the mastermind to learn from John Carlton. I joined the Mastermind to get in front of him, to impress him and to get his connections. And that's what happened. It's not who you know, it's who knows you.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:23:12]:

Coming up in a bit, Colin shares his three-step framework that he uses to draft all his direct response copy for his clients. But first, I want to give you a sneak preview of what the premium members of First Class Founders are listening to right now…

Yong-Soo Chung [00:23:44]:

In each episode of this podcast I craft a special segment for members of the First Class Founders community. For today's episode, I am sharing the part of my conversation with Colin where we spoke about the differences between content, copy, and direct response copywriting - this last one being what Colin is so incredibly good at.It was fascinating to hear about the evolution of copywriting from someone who has spent fifteen years in the field. Particularly, when Colin reminded me that:

Colin Chung [00:24:04]:

Prior to the Internet, copywriting was like the stuff you got in radio ads or jingles or like a, ah, print advertising in the magazines, or a billboard, classified, uh, whatever.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:14]:

Then, somewhere along the way, the definition got twisted and…

Colin Chung [00:24:21]:

Anything that was written online became quote, unquote copy. Like blogs, articles, SEO articles...

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:26]:

But that's not copywriting, Colin argues. That's content.

Colin Chung [00:24:30]:

Copywriting is always something that gets in action. So it's either a Facebook ad or Google Pay Per Click ad.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:40]:

And what HE does is an incredibly specific kind of copywriting called ‘direct response copywriting’ because it LITERALLY gets a “direct response” from the person who reads it.

Colin Chung [00:24:46]:

It has to get an action. That, to me, is what direct response copywriting is.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:56]:

Additionally, a little later in the episode, premium subscribers can hear Colin’s thoughts on how he works with clients who insist on changing his copy, which has Colin saying this amazing quote:

Colin Chung [00:25:09]:

The great thing about freelancing is projects don't last that long and you can leave.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:25:15]:

All of this and much, MUCH more will be made available to premium members of First Class Founders in a special segment available exclusively in the ad-free version of the podcast feed.Additionally, the First Class Founders membership also comes with a ton of other perks. For instance, members of First Class Founders also get early access to podcast episodes, bonus episodes - including the entire raw, unedited interview - the ability to Ask Me Anything, and much more! Head on over to firstclassfounders.com/join - I'll put the link in the show notes! And while you do that, I'll queue up the final segment of this episode... Coming back to Colin’s story, I told you that I’d be sharing Colin’s three-step framework that he uses to construct direct response copy for all his clients. So let’s get right into it… As a copywriter, Colin excels in something called 'direct response copywriting'.

Colin Chung [00:26:19]:

And so, like, I don't think of myself as a writer, really. I think of myself as a salesperson. So what I'm doing is I am creating a sales pitch for your product and you you don't have to hire salespeople. You just spam that sales pitch however you need to on the Internet. You drive traffic to the video or the landing page and that sales page, that salesperson is doing the selling for you.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:26:47]:

Over the years, Colin has developed and fine-tuned his process of writing direct response copy into a three-step framework that he uses for every project he works on. The first step is identifying the PROBLEM.

Colin Chung [00:27:00]:

The first thing I really think about is research. And there's a lot of research I'm focused on when I'm hired to do a project. So, the main thing is, the first thing is, like any business or entrepreneur, the first thing you think about is the market. What's the problem you're solving with this product or solution? And you really need to dig into who the market is, what they're going through, how they describe the problem. And a lot of it is just like, going on forums or going on Amazon and reading their words.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:27:31]:

Colin's research is so rigorous that he will proactively reach out to people who are already using the product if he doesn't find enough material online.

Colin Chung [00:27:42]:

So if I can't get actual, um, words from the market, I talk to a client, hey, can you hook me up with your clients or customers so I can talk to them? And that way you get their words. The problem. You have to understand their problem. And how do you describe the problem in the market? How do I position your product or solution in a way that's unique or different from everybody else? So, uh, if it's a completely new product or concept, it's easier because nobody else is doing it. But direct response copywriters tend to make the most money in markets that are saturated because the competition is high. And there's, like, a big, proven, lucrative market. There are already, like, weight loss, or how to make money on the Internet, or how to make money in the stock market, or, um, how to find love or self help stuff. Those are supersaturated, hyper competitive markets. Uh, so you're constantly looking for a new angle for whatever product your client is selling.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:28:37]:

I find this incredibly fascinating because as a founder, I prefer to look for an unexplored niche in the market. An audience that hasn't been touched yet. But, here is Colin saying that he actually PREFERS saturated markets! His logic is sound though - a saturated market means there is already demand for a product. Which means that he doesn't need to worry about attracting new customers through his copy. Which means he can focus purely on positioning the product to make it attractive to the market. Which brings us to the third and final step of the framework - PROOF.

Colin Chung [00:29:16]:

Proof is like, well, you made a crazy claim, now I'll back it up. So, like, a lot of my research time is so they get let's say I'm looking I'm doing research for a supplement. I'm looking up tons of studies, like, Harvard if I can or, like, m I not MIT. So, like, Mayo Clinic or whatever. Like, I'm looking up research to back up whether this ingredient actually helps you lose weight or helps you with your heart health or whatever, blood sugar. So I'm doing tons of research. And I'm basically, like, I never got a science degree, but I feel like I almost have 1 now because I'd learned how to read clinical studies. Basically,

Yong-Soo Chung [00:29:52]:

Basically proof involves providing enough empirical data to back up the claims he makes during step 2 i.e., while constructing the POSITION for the product.The proof requires the same rigorousness in research as the search for the PROBLEM statement, which we discussed a short while ago in step 1. And it requires some pretty deep research, going by what he says...

Colin Chung [00:30:15]:

Two years ago, I wrote a promo on automated vehicles and the rabbit holes I went down. Like I read every MIT. Um, what is there in your magazine? Technology review or whatever. And I read all the wired articles. I knew, ah, AVs inside out. Like, I knew what was new, what was happening, how China had a fleet of 50 something, ah, automated taxis that was driving around, uh, an area, a province that was four times the side of New York, Manhattan. So this was already happening within a geolocated space. So I'm doing that much research.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:30:53]:

And that's Colin's three-step framework for writing direct response copy - PROBLEM, POSITION, PROOF - that is...

Colin Chung [00:31:04]:

Understanding the market, the problem, uh, understanding your, uh, position, and understanding, um, having proof to back up everything. And that's before I get to the product. So once I get to the product, then I do your typical features and benefits. So, like, what are you selling here? All the different features and what are the benefits, how does it help them? And then the rest is just like, stories and, um, other things.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:31:19]:

Some of you might be thinking, “Wait a second, the three-step framework sounds vaguely like the stuff every copywriter does - or at least should do - before drafting any product copy!”If that is you, then, congratulations! You just proved that you too are as good a copywriter as Colin and there aren’t many like him, I can tell you that. But, the reason I am hyping it up here(?) is because it applies to ALL founders as well. Every founder needs to figure out the correct problem statement for their product. Every founder needs to come up with the best positioning for their product. And finally, every founder needs to provide ample proof for any claims they make about their product. There isn’t an explicit lesson here but the smarter ones among you will do well to apply the PROBLEM-POSITION-PROOF framework to your own products - whatever that product may be. Finally, I asked Colin what advice he would give to freelancers looking to build a business of their own. His advice was rather... philosophical.

Colin Chung [00:32:23]:

I think at the end of the day, um, it's not so much faking it till you make it, or having confidence as clearing out the shit that you have in your head. Because for most of us, for most people, uh, we come from lower, uh, middle class families, and we're just trying to make more money and do better for our parents or whatever. And it's like we have a lot of concepts in our heads that are just wrong. Um, I know I grew up in a household where money is the root of all evil. Rich people are just like scam artists. Um, if you make more than a certain amount of money, you're probably ripping somebody off. Uh, there's all these concepts in your head that you probably need to clean out. Um, or maybe you've been through a difficult childhood and you have trauma you need to deal with, but at the end of the day, really, you need to work on those things. And most people don't like most, um, bizarre gurus or get rich quick gurus, they don't want to talk about that stuff because it's hard to talk about talking about the mindset stuff. And another frustrating thing about the mindset stuff is nobody wants to pay money for the mindset stuff. But it is the most important thing to do. Right. I spent money on self help seminars. Right. And you realize all these stories you have about these beliefs you have about yourself, or beliefs you have about the world, where did they come from? And you realize they're just wrong. Or you're holding resentments towards your parents for no good reason or whatever, or you have a chip on your shoulder or whatever, you have to clear all those things out. And a lot of that is just doing self work or inner work and just realizing, um, that you could be a better person. Now, how does this apply? Uh, uh, practically, dude, when you're talking to clients, and if you're toxic, they'll pick up on that. Right? When you're asking for money, they'll know if you're desperate or you're resentful or you're just, like, a negative person, they will pick up on that. So if you want to get better clients, be a better person first.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:34:26]:

"If you want to get better clients, be a better person first." That is definitely sound advice. I also liked the part about developing your own growth mindset by doing self-work. Let's mark that as the fourth and final lesson for the day...LESSON NUMBER FOUR: If you want to land higher-paying clients, work on harnessing a growth mindset, first. Before we conclude the episode, let's quickly summarize the key learnings from today's episode. LESSON NUMBER ONE: Spend as much time as necessary to figure out what you want to do with your life. Colin spent a significant amount of time researching online businesses before choosing to dive into direct response copywriting as a career. LESSON NUMBER TWO: Figure out your right rooms and find a way to get into them. Colin's research into the copywriting and digital marketing 'family tree' led to him joining John Carlton's Mastermind, which opened up a ton of opportunities for him. LESSON NUMBER THREE: To grow your business, build a solid reputation in your right rooms. It turns out that the formula for growing his freelance copywriting business was to combine these two elements - getting into the right rooms and building a solid reputation. LESSON NUMBER FOUR: If you want to land higher-paying clients, work on harnessing a growth mindset, first. You can reach Colin on his website.

Colin Chung [00:35:57]:

So, the hub of everything is Colinchung.com. Um, there you can find a link to the course. You can find a link to my newsletter. You can find a link to my consulting, uh, or whatever. Uh, and you'll find a link to my Twitter account as well. But, like, Colinchung.com is where you can go, um, just to find everything. I just put together a freelancing course. Um, and I just went through all the transactions and projects I've had over the last 15 years, and I went back to the first 18 months, because that's such a crucial period.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:36:32]:

Alright, that wraps up today's show! In the next episode of First Class Founders, we are talking to the amazing Andrew Warner of the Mixergy podcast! I recently got his book “Stop Asking Questions” and invited him on the podcast so I could… ask him a LOT of questions, haha! Andrew and I chatted in detail about all his ventures, especially about the ones that failed and what lessons he learned from them. You DEFINITELY don’t want to miss this one! And, one last thing before I go... If you're a new listener and you enjoyed this episode, you can follow the show by going to FirstClassFounders.com and clicking on the link that matches your preferred podcast player - like Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or, you can also add YOUR voice to the show by leaving a message on firstclassfounders.com - for example, what did you think of this episode specifically? And, when you get a chance, could you also head over to FirstClassFounders.com/review and leave the podcast a five-star review? It really helps boost credibility for the show which means more incredible guests for you! And why wouldn’t you want that? I’ll leave a link in the show notes to leave us a 5-star review. Thank you so much!If you wanna connect with me, you can hit me up on Twitter @YongSooChung. I’m pretty active there and would love to connect with you. You can find links to all my social accounts in the show notes.I'll see you on the next episode of First Class Founders.

Colin Chung [00:38:01]:

I have, like, about 300 Bones Reaper miniatures for D & D. I had intentions of painting them. I painted 5 after spending thousands on, like, paints and, like, brushes and, like, And it's just it's not gonna happen. I have 3 different businesses. I have 3 kids. This is not happening. It's just like, Here's the thing. I grew up poor, and these are things I've always wanted. Right? So when you start making money at the adult, you're like, oh, I'm gonna buy this. I'm gonna spend all my time on thing you realize is that, oh, you don't have time to do anything.