Mastering the Art of Navigating Unexpected Change for Success with Brad Stulberg, Best-Selling Author

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:00]

One of my favorite authors, Viktor E. Frankl, once said about change, "When we are no longer able to change a situation - we are challenged to change ourselves." Viktor's thoughts about change have been echoed by many other people across time and space. "There is nothing permanent except change" or "Change is the law of life."

And yet, despite all this wisdom, when change DOES come, we often find ourselves resisting it.  We fear change and curse fate when it happens to us. We push back against it as if it were something bad happening to us.

Brad Stulberg [00:00:31]

That's right. I think that the default response that a lot of people have is that change is a singular event that happens to them, when, in fact, change is the ongoing nature of reality. Everything is always changing, including us.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:00:48]

That's Brad Stulberg, an author, executive coach, and speaker. Brad's books have sold nearly four hundred thousand copies in twenty languages and his most recent book is called "Master of Change: How to Excel When Everything is Changing - Including You."

Brad Stulberg [00:01:03]

So rather than think of change as this thing that happens to you, it's really beneficial to think of change as something that you are participating in... That you're in an ongoing conversation with. Times of life, seasons of life, will feel more stable than others. But we are always in conversation with change. Change internally, the change in ourselves. No one escapes aging. You could live in a bubble, but you're still going to age. So that change is here for all of us. And then change externally. Change in geopolitics, new technologies, pandemics, war. So we think that change is the exception, when, in fact, change is the rule.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:01:41]

"Change is not the exception. Change is the rule."

But, here's a secret that no one knows.

Brad Stulberg [00:01:47]

And by shifting our relationship with change, it really empowers us because it says that change isn't this thing that we need to resist on the one hand, or on the other hand, completely just let pummel over us. But rather, change is something that, yes, it shapes us, but we get to shape it, too. We can be in conversation with it.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:02:06]

We can be in conversation with change. We can shape the change, rather than letting it shape us. We don't have to resist change.

But how exactly do we do that?  And can everyone do that?  Are there any simple techniques that will prevent change from overwhelming and overpowering us?

Yes, yes, and yes. In fact, that’s exactly why I invited Brad on the show today - to talk about change and how to deal with it as entrepreneurs and founders.

So, jet-setters, strap on your seatbelts because this flight is filled with tons of wisdom and knowledge!

Yong-Soo Chung [00:02:44]

The next generation of successful founders in this digital age of entrepreneurship will leverage their audience to launch, build, and scale their brands. First Class Founders explores this golden intersection of audience-building & company-building with proven strategies to grow both your audience, which is your distribution, and your brand, which is your product.

Because those who can master both will create a category of one.

Hi, my name is Yong-Soo Chung and I'm a serial entrepreneur who bootstrapped 3 successful businesses from $0 to $20 million over 8 years.

On this podcast, you'll learn timeless lessons from world-class content creators, startup founders, and CEOs. You'll also hear tactical tips & strategies from ME, Yong-Soo Chung.

Are you ready? Then, let’s begin!

Yong-Soo Chung [00:03:37]

On today's episode of First Class Founders, we are talking to change management expert and author Brad Stulberg. Brad has already published several excellent books such as "Practice of Groundedness", "Peak Performance", and "The Passion Paradox". And his most recent book, "Master of Change", is now available for sale at your favorite bookstore.

Brad Stulberg [00:03:44]

Hey, so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:03:46]

Brad has already published several excellent books such as The Practice of Groundiness, Peek Performance, and the Passion paradox, and his most recent book, Master of Change, is now available for sale at your favorite bookstore. So, I take the opportunity to invite Brad on the show to speak about how to manage change as an entrepreneur and founder.

Brad Stulberg [00:04:05]

So my name is Brad Stulberg, and I write, research, and coach on human excellence, health, and well being. I live in the mountains of western North Carolina. And, I've got a wife, two kids, and a big old German shepherd.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:04:21]

During the course of our conversation, Brad shared some wonderful insights about the seemingly paradoxical concept of "rugged flexibility", the 4 Ps framework of responsiveness that beats reactiveness and why it’s important to recognize real fatigue from fake fatigue when dealing with change. By the end of today's episode, you will have several clear frameworks to develop a mindset that is incredibly responsive to change.

For premium members of First Class Founders, I've included a special segment in which Brad shared THREE easy techniques that you can implement immediately to deal with change. The segment also contains Brad's valuable insights on how to deal with change as a Type-A personality - something that applies to most founders and entrepreneurs. Sign up for the premium membership at firstclassfounders.com/join - I'll leave a link in the show notes.

Go ahead and open that link in a tab, while I get this flight ready for take-off!

Brad Stulberg [00:05:18]

Hi, I'm Brad Stulberg. Let's get down to business.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:05:25]

A quick note before we begin, we teamed up with HyperPods to bring to you a quick 3-min hyper-visual summary of this episode to help you consume faster, understand better, and retain more key ideas and insights.

You can grab the hyper-visual summary for this week’s episode featuring Brad Stulberg at firstclassfounders.com/hypervisuals.

The last few years have been very tumultuous for founders, entrepreneurs, and creators. First, a worldwide pandemic, then came the great resignation. And last year, ChatGPT launched an AI movement, which left everyone reeling.

The world as it looked a year ago, is drastically different from what it was THREE years ago, and almost unrecognizable from what it was just FIVE years ago!

Makes you wonder, if things will ever be the same, right?

The core idea that Brad Stulberg proposes in his book "Master of Change" involves achieving stability between disorder and reorder by developing what he calls "rugged flexibility".

Yes, you heard that right. Rugged. Flexibility.

Brad Stulberg [00:06:29]

People hear the word rugged and flexible. And they think that these are diametrically opposed opposites. To be rugged is to be really strong, to be robust. And to be flexible is to be soft, to be supple, to bend without breaking. In the face of change, people tend to go to one of these extremes. They say, I'm either going to double down and hold my ground and be really rugged, or I'm going to be really Zen and go with the flow and be really flexible. Yet in my research and reporting for this book, the individuals, organizations, and cultures that best navigate change and that have really persistent, lasting excellent. They're not rugged or flexible. They're both rugged and flexible.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:11]

Both rugged AND flexible? How does that work exactly?

Brad Stulberg [00:07:15]

So let's use the metaphor of a river. It's commonly invoked to talk about change. Because a river is always flowing, right? It flows over, around, and under obstacles in its way. That's great. That's a really good quality. But if a river didn't have a bank, it would just be random, dispersed water. It wouldn't be going anywhere, be going in no direction. So a river is formed by its bank, and the bank of a river is really rugged. It lasts over time. So a river is both rugged and flexible.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:07:50]

That's interesting. But, human beings can't flow like water. So, how does "rugged flexibility" apply to humans - specifically to founders, entrepreneurs, maybe even organizations?!

Brad Stulberg [00:08:00]

So I like to think of ruggedness as our core values, the things that really matter to us most, the qualities that we aspire towards. And then the flexibility part is how we apply those over time. And how we adapt and evolve and shift as the environment around us and within us changes. So it's not about sacrificing agency, but it's also not about over controlling. It's about skillful action. It's about knowing our values and what we stand for and then flexibly applying them to meet the moment as things constantly and inevitably change.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:08:33]

Let's make this the first takeaway for this episode.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 1: It is not about being rugged and fighting change. Nor is it about being flexible and accepting change completely. It is about being "ruggedly flexible" and overcoming the change.

An example of “rugged flexibility”, according to Brad, is Roger Federer. Between the ages of 33 and 36, Federer was suffering from the worst slump of his professional career, which prompted his critics to claim that he was now too old for the game.

Brad Stulberg [00:09:02]

And Federer decided to completely reinvent his game. So he learned a one handed backhand to slow points down. He started playing at the net more so that he wouldn't have to run the baseline with these faster, younger players. He even got rid of his old racquet, the racquet that he used to make him the best in the world to adopt a new racquet that younger players were using with new technology.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:09:23]

BUT what DIDN'T change were his core values of excellence and competition. He still had the same fire, the same intense desire to win....

Brad Stulberg [00:09:30]

...and as a result, at age 37, he had one of the best years of his career. He won two major championships and was ranked number two in the world. At age 37, which in sport is like a dinosaur.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:09:40]

And what is true for Roger Federer is true in a LOT of situations - be it sports, athletics, entrepreneurship, or even RELATIONSHIPS, believe it or not!

Brad Stulberg [00:09:49]

Any endeavor that is big and audacious, where you're trying to get from here to there, you have to be equal parts rugged and flexible to have a chance. Because, while you can kind of predict where you're going to go, you can't predict all the weather along the way.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:10:02]

This reminded me of something that had come up in episode 26 with Justin Gordon, when he was speaking about the athletes he had trained back in the day...

EPISODE 26 - JUSTIN GORDON
"It's like being Drew Brees. You do all the training, you study the playbook and you prepare as much as you can for the game, but then when the game comes, it might be snowing, it might be really windy. You have no idea what those game conditions might be, but you just have to adapt to that and make those decisions on the fly during the game."

Just like elite athletes, great founders, entrepreneurs, and operators keep an eye on the weather and are alert to any changes that might disrupt their flow. And, like elite athletes, they adapt to any and all changes in game conditions on the fly, during the game.

Brad Stulberg [00:10:51]

I think that you're spot on about those operators. They're responding, not reacting, to the shifts in their environment. And then the other thing that really good operators do a great job of is they update their expectations to meet reality.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:11:05]

Hold on, did you catch that bit about reacting and responding? Here, let me play it for you again...

Brad Stulberg [00:11:12]

I think that you're spot on about those operators. They're responding, not reacting, to the shifts in their environment.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:11:17]

The difference between reacting and responding seems subtle but is actually significant.

Brad Stulberg [00:11:22]

So reacting I think of as really quick, automatic, sometimes instinctual. Responding, on the other hand, is thoughtful, it's deliberate, it's discerning, it's effortful, it's planful. And it has some space between stimulus and response.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:11:44]

To take this a step further, Brad has distilled this down to make it easy-to-remember.

Brad Stulberg [00:11:49]

I like to think about reacting as two P's. We panic, and then we pummel ahead. Whereas responding follows a path of four P's. We pause, we create some space in that space. We process, we see what's happening. Then we make a plan. We say, hey, given what's happening, what are my resources? What are my skills? What are my capabilities, and what can I do with them? And only then do we proceed.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:12:15]

In other words, when the immediate moment is filled with danger of life and limb, it is okay - even advisable - to react quickly. But, as a founder, you rarely encounter such situations. Most of the moments of change that you come across as a founder are situations that require you to RESPOND, rather than REACT.

In fact, let's make that the second takeaway for this episode.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 2: When faced with a moment of change, respond using the 4Ps framework - pause, process, plan, and only then, proceed.

This does not mean one is better than the other, by the way. Both of them have their own place in situations of change.

Brad Stulberg [00:12:51]

If you're hiking and a snake's about to bite you or a mountain lion jumps out, yeah, you don't want to be planful. You just want to do what your instinct says. But when you're in a meeting or you're in a board session and a board member says something you don't agree with, or a round of investment doesn't go the way you thought, you don't want to react. You want to respond really thoughtfully. And that's how we shape change, man.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:13:10]

An example I like to give in this regard is that of Benjamin Franklin. It is said that whenever he was angry, he would unleash all of his rage into a letter and then... (pause) lock it away in a drawer. He would revisit the letter after two days, at which point he would have had enough time to think about the situation and re-read the letter. Almost always, he would end up crumpling up the letter and tossing it out.

Sure, we live in much fancier times with apps instead of letters and it is easier to fire off a tweet or a DM but the core principle still remains the same - pause, process, plan, and proceed.

Brad Stulberg [00:13:46]

The notion of journaling, which is extensively a fancy way of saying do what Ben Franklin did, is one evidence-based way to do this. Another way is to name the emotions that you're feeling. So the minute that you name something, you create some space between you and it, right? There's like an observer that is observing it, that can name it, and then it loses some power over you. Mindfulness practice... Take in a couple of deep breaths, coming back into your body.... And then, discussing it with friends, or with colleagues, like, putting it out there so that they can say, hey, that is really hard, and I get why you're revved up, but let's slow things down a bit.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:14:23]

If you think about it, each of those four methods that Brad mentioned mimics the response heuristic, that is, the 4 Ps framework. Each of those four methods requires you to pause, process, plan, and proceed when you encounter change that you don't agree with, right?

Brad Stulberg [00:14:36]

And just the act of doing any of these things is, like, 50% of the benefit. Because you're already out of reactionary mode. Like, it's a zero sum game. Your brain is not capable of reacting and responding at the same time. So just by shifting into that more responsive gear, you buy yourself some space and some time to hopefully make a wise decision.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:14:58]

Here's the thing. As a founder, entrepreneur, or operator, we are no strangers to change. Heck, we navigate all KINDS of change every single moment in our working lives. And, everybody knows how incredibly stressful these can get to navigate.

But, the upside is, you can think of these moments as opportunities to PRACTICE the 4Ps framework!

Brad Stulberg [00:15:15]

And you can learn real fast because you get good feedback. So it's like a fishbowl to experiment with what are the skills that you can use to respond, not react, when change occurs? And that change can be really small. That change can be an email that you thought sent, like, froze in your server and it didn't go out. Or it can be you got stuck in traffic on the way to a meeting, or that change can be enormous. Which is your CFO quits with no notice. You want to practice in the small circumstances to ready yourself for the big ones.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:15:45]

And, by the way, the principle of "rugged flexibility" that we spoke a little while earlier ties back into this response heuristic!

Brad Stulberg [00:15:53]

What guides our response should be our values, right? Because even when the path forward isn't clear, you can say, well, what would my values say? What would a creative person do? What a person that values health or authenticity or vulnerability, whatever it is, what would that kind of person do? And then that helps guide our next actions. The flexibility is accepting what's happening in front of you, even if it wasn't what you thought that it would be.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:16:17]

Coming up in a bit, Brad shares an interesting concept called multiple identity buckets and explains why it’s absolutely critical not to be overweight in any one identity bucket when dealing with change. Later in the episode, we also discussed how the spectrum of responses to change can range all the way from "problem-solving" to "complete acceptance".

But first, I want to give a quick shout out to my sponsor for this episode Swell AI.
Quick question. Have you checked out Swell AI yet? You know how I'm always looking for ways to streamline my podcast production process? Yeah. So I recently began using Swell AI. Let me tell you. It's like having a mind reader as an assistant. I use it to write show notes, pull the best parts of the episode into an organized summary, optimize the episode titles for high engagement, and transcribe the whole entire episode. And the best part, All of this gets done instantly using the power of AI. Can you imagine the amount of time I save? Go on give swell ai try. I'll leave a link in the show notes.

Alright, now let's get back to our episode with author and change management expert Brad Stulberg.

Before the break, we looked at the principle of rugged flexibility and using the response heuristic that Brad calls the 4Ps framework in the face of change.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:17:45

Before the break, we looked at the principle of rugged flexibility and using the response heuristic that Brad calls the 4Ps framework in the face of change.

But now, let’s shift focus to ourselves, for a moment.

Yup, I’m talking about our own identities. Everyone has identity buckets, whether you know it or not. Since you’re listening to this podcast, you probably consider yourself an entrepreneur. But do you consider yourself an athlete? How about a parent? These are what Brad calls identity buckets.

And Brad is very clear about the fact that you shouldn't put all your identity-eggs in a single basket-bucket.

Brad Stulberg [00:18:25]

Well, when your entire identity is in one thing, and that one thing changes, you have nowhere to seek refuge. So you're full on in that disorder, you have no stability. Whereas if you have multiple components of your identity, when there's a stark change in one, you can lean on others for support.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:18:43]

Brad used the example of Olympic speed-skater Nils van der Poel to illustrate the concept.

Brad Stulberg [00:18:49]

So, Nils won the gold medal in the 2022 Winter Olympics in both the 5K and the 10K, and he also set the world record.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:18:58]

But, before the 2022 Winter Olympics, Nils wasn't entirely happy with his performance. And so he introspected and found that…

Brad Stulberg [00:19:06]

...that he was holding on to a lot of fear, that whenever he stepped into the oval, he was feeling fear.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:19:13]

Imagine that! a world-class speed skater feelIng fear when he steps into his arena of choice! That would be like me feeling fear every time I step into my warehouse! Unimaginable, right?

And obviously, this fear was hampering his ability to go all out! So Nils asked himself the all important question, "Why am I feeling fear?"

Brad Stulberg [00:19:34]

And he introspected and realized that the reason he was feeling fear is because his entire identity was wrapped up in him being a world class speed skater. That was the source of meaning in his life. And therefore, he had so much to lose. Because if he got injured or if he tripped, a race didn't go well, everything was on the line. There was no one else. There was no other Nils van der Poel.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:02]

Nils had wrapped up his entire existence into a singular identity of "Nils van der Poel, world-class speed-skater". And that singular identity was weighing heavily upon him.

So, what's the solution? Well, the easiest way to relieve yourself of the weight of the world on your shoulders is to simply shrug it off.

And that's exactly what Nils did.

Brad Stulberg [00:20:23]

He took a completely normal weekend. He went out and got beers and ate pizza with his friends. He went bowling. He went on hikes. He started reading books.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:33]

What Nils did was he simply diversified his sense of identity.

Brad Stulberg [00:20:38]

So it wasn't just Nils Van der Poel the speed skater. It was Nils van der Poel, the human being, that had these other areas, these other buckets for his identity.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:20:47]

He still trained 40 hours a week - that didn't change, mind you. But he made space for other identities to develop. Other identities that he could fall back on, you know, just in case.

Simple, yet brilliant, isn’t it?

What happened with Nils is also what happens with all of us as founders, entrepreneurs and operators. We too fall into the trap of making our work our identity.

And what's even more surprising is that we already KNOW and understand this concept of NOT putting all our eggs in one basket! Heck, it is one of the fundamental rules of investing, isn't it? "Never invest all your money in a single asset class." Because if that particular asset class fails, you are screwed!

And yet, in our personal lives, we somehow deem it okay to NOT have multiple buckets. What’s worse, the advice we often get from people is actually the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!

Brad Stulberg [00:21:38]

...which is, like, you have to go all in. You have to be obsessed. And a part of that means you can only do this one thing. But it actually makes us really fragile to change.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:21:46]

That brings up an obvious question - how do you spot and develop your identity buckets?

Brad Stulberg [00:21:51]

I think we all had them when we were kids before we were told that our whole purpose in life is just to go work at this one thing. Or to get as many subscribers, or followers, or raise the biggest valuation or sell as many copies. These are things that bring us joy, that allow us to express a part of ourselves. It doesn't have to be like something that you do. It could be listening to music. And just like, a huge part of your life is like, you actively listen to music once or twice a week. There are things that are just distinct, but make us who we are and make us into this cohesive whole.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:22:25]

Things that make us into a cohesive whole. That's definitely an interesting way to think about "identity buckets", for sure.

Another way to think about identity buckets is like this…

Brad Stulberg [00:22:33]

Imagine your identity is like a house. And if your house only has one room, and that one room catches fire, you're screwed. But if your house has multiple rooms and one room catches fire, you can seek refuge in the other rooms while you put out the fire in the room that's on fire. And it allows you to withstand change.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:22:52]

But, hold on. There is an important point that Brad and I BOTH want to underline here. Having multiple identity buckets does NOT mean doing away with your passion for entrepreneurship.

Brad Stulberg [00:23:02]

Because it's some nuance. Two things can be true at once. You need to, if you want to be great at something, spend a lot of time, attention, and energy focusing on that thing. You need to spend a lot of time in that room of your house. I'm not arguing you need to spend equal amounts of time in equal rooms. What I am arguing is you never want to shut the doors to the other rooms. And you can emphasize different parts of your identity, at different parts of your life. And to me, that is not only the key to being happy and maintaining mental health, it's also the key to elite performance.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:23:32]

Brad suggests having at least THREE identity buckets for yourself.

Brad Stulberg [00:23:35]

...a primary work-bucket, a primary relational-bucket, and then a primary health-bucket. And you don't have to consider yourself an athlete, it can be gardening. You don't have to be married or be in a serious relationship, but you ought to have some friends and spend time cultivating those relationships. And then, obviously, I'm talking to a bunch of founders in Creative, the work-bucket, I don't need you all to I don't need to elaborate for you all. You know what that is!

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:01]

And, yes, Brad *absolutely* practices what he preaches!

Brad Stulberg [00:24:07]

I treat my writing as my craft. It's a huge part of my identity. But I also make sure to maintain my athlete identity, even when I just want to double down on writing. Even during a book release, when it's so easy to just go all in, record all the podcasts, write all the op eds. I make sure that I'm going to the gym for an hour and a half a day and maintaining that part of my identity because it's so separate from writing…

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:27]

Did you catch that bit about Brad having an "athlete identity-bucket"? Yeah, I dug into it a little bit and it turns out Brad is into competitive powerlifting!

Brad Stulberg [00:24:36]

So bench press deadlift and squat, it gives me an outlet separate from writing that I can either succeed or fail in. And I think that's important.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:24:47]:

And the reason why Brad deemed it important is actually eye-opening.

Brad Stulberg [00:24:50]

writing is somewhat subjective. I can't control whether or not people are going to like a book or if a book is going to sell, or if it's going to catch the Atomic Habits marketing wave. Whereas strength training is so objective. Like, you either make the lift or you don't, And nothing really matters but you and the bar. So it's a really nice counterbalance.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:25:10]

Okay, I think that might explain why Mark Zuckerbeg is so heavily into mixed martial arts! Because, that right there, that is a brilliant bit of insight! In fact, I am now wondering whether all founders and entrepreneurs should look into developing something similarly competitive for themselves, too!

Brad Stulberg [00:25:26]

It depends on the person and their temperament. But, I do think it's important to have an element of your life that is very objective. So it can even be gardening. Like, either the flower blooms or it doesn't, and then you go do the experiment again.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:25:43]

The way I see it, founding and running a company is incredibly subjective. There are so many daily 'what-ifs' and 'maybes' to contend with that it definitely helps to have something that is purely binary - yes or no - in its outcomes. And maybe, just maybe, you can take the high of your wins from your competitive identity buckets and use that energy in your primary identity-bucket!

Brad Stulberg [00:26:05]

Bingo. There's a founder that is a good friend and someone I've counseled for a long time named Sarah. I won't say her last name. And she had the situation with her company. They raised, like, their second round. They were growing fast. She was doing a great job, and part of her job was to, just be super-adaptive. But she got to where she was because she was so addicted to making progress. So I'm like, how many pushups can you do? She's like, "Five." I'm like, "Great, by the end of the year, let's try to get that up to 20 push ups." And it was that simple. And she started to feel so much better, just because she had this one area, her violin, for where she could tick that box of getting some wins and seeing that progress in a very objective way.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:26:44]

Isn't that such a wonderful mindset hack? I think it definitely counts as a takeaway for this episode!

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 3: Build at least one identity bucket that consists of objective outcomes. Then, use the wins from these outcomes to fuel the subjective decisions in your main identity bucket.

Coming up in a bit, Brad talks about the difference between real fatigue and fake fatigue and shares a simple test to distinguish one from the other. He also shared an incredibly valuable piece of advice to help founders and entrepreneurs deal with change much more effectively.

But first I want to tell you about something that is dear to me GrowthJet.

E-commerce fulfillment is a pain. One time, one of my customers emailed me asking me why we had shipped them an empty box. It turns out the 3PL had stolen the $1,000 product and shipped an empty box to my customer. Yeah, that was not fun.

So, I launched GrowthJet, a Climate-Neutral Certified third-party logistics company for e-commerce brands.

We can pick, pack, and ship your orders from our warehouse in Brisbane, California while having direct access to our team onsite. We take great pride in our customer experience. Just ask current partners! They love us.

GrowthJet is the 3PL that I wish I had when I launched my own brand, Urban EDC.

If you have an e-commerce shop, check out GrowthJet and hit me up at growthjet.com

Okay, now let's get back to our episode with Brad.

We just heard from Brad about the importance of diversifying your sense of identity and having multiple identity-buckets in your life.

Another important concept that Brad speaks about in the book was that of real fatigue and fake fatigue.

Brad Stulberg [00:28:41]

I define real fatigue as fatigue that is caused by a mind-body system that is truly tired and needs to rest. I describe fake fatigue as your mind-body system being as rested and as recovered as it's going to be, but still telling you that it feels really down and tired. And these two types of fatigue are important to differentiate because they require a very different response.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:29:10]

Obviously, with real fatigue, you need to rest and let the body recover. Otherwise you risk seriously damaging it. But, with fake fatigue, Brad says, you need to do the exact opposite.

Brad Stulberg [00:29:21]

...which is just force yourself to get going. So, in the research literature, this is called behavioral activation. And it simply means that even though we think we need to feel good to get going, oftentimes, we need to get going to give ourselves a chance at feeling good.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:29:37]

BUT beware, because sometimes it is VERY difficult to differentiate between fake and real fatigue!

Brad Stulberg [00:29:43]

I air on the side of treating it, if you don't know, like real fatigue... Because the cost of pushing through real fatigue is pretty significant. But if you shut things down for a few days and you still feel really apathetic, then maybe you need to shift strategies and you need to say, "All right, you're telling me I'm tired, but I've rested. I think this is more of like a psychological rut. So I'm just going to nudge myself into action. I'm going to force myself to get going."

Yong-Soo Chung [00:30:06]

Fake fatigue is basically your body following the law of inertia. And, like Newton's first law of motion says, the only way to to get it going is to give it a nudge.

In fact, Brad shared an interesting method of 'nudging' your body out of fake fatigue - something that elite athletes know as "the Taper".

Brad Stulberg [00:30:23]

So athletes do something called a taper, which basically means that before a big event, they take a couple of weeks of really easy training to Let their bodies recover from all of the hard work. So they might train really hard for like, six months and then take two easy weeks to taper.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:30:38]

Wait, it doesn't end here. Listen to this part carefully...

Brad Stulberg [00:30:41]

And, at the end of a taper, any good coach knows you want to sprinkle in just some really short, high intensity sessions. And the reason for that is to wake the body up. Because the body can very easily pick up this inertia of rest. And you don't want to take that inertia to the start line or to the arena.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:30:58]

Basically, the 'taper' is an excellent example of how 'real fatigue' can easily turn into 'fake fatigue' and how you can nudge your body out of it.

Brad Stulberg [00:31:06]

Happened to me with writing. Anytime I come off a big writing project I do, I give myself a few days to just chill out and let my brain kind of go back to its default state. But I never feel ready to start writing again. I always feel like, "Oh, I'm too tired." But I just kind of know, like, after three days, even if I feel tired, I just force myself to get started. And then that feeling, it goes away, and I start to feel motivated again.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:31:28]

To summarize, the takeaway here is to give yourself enough time to rest and recover from real fatigue and then, jolt your body back into action!

Brad Stulberg [00:31:35]

And that's true with physical injury. It's true with psychological injury. It's true with success, and celebrating. It's true with defeat, in feeling really crappy.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:31:44]

Let's make this the final takeaway for today.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 4: Fatigue can be real or fake. You need time and space to rest and recover from real fatigue. But you need to force yourself to get going to quote-unquote 'recover' from fake fatigue.

I'll recap all the major takeaways of the episode in a little while but, first, I want you to carefully listen to Brad's words of wisdom for managing change in your life...

Brad Stulberg [00:32:07]

Change is inevitable. So to fear change is to fear life. Change and life are kind of synonymous and in between toxic positivity & pollyanna, on the one hand, and despair & nihilism on the other, there's this huge chasm in the middle, which is where we can be rugged and flexible. And we can be kind to ourselves and have self compassion while at the same time doing hard things and having self-discipline. And I think that being able to. Live a, full, meaningful, textured life requires that we don't take the easy route and default into that lane of just being delusionally optimistic or intellectually despairing. But we meet the world where it is and we embrace it, and we do what we can to be rugged and flexible and change over time.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:33:01]

Okay, let's quickly recap the important takeaways on how to manage change as taught to us by author, coach, and change management expert, Brad Stulberg.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 1: It is not about being rugged and fighting change. Nor is it about being flexible and accepting change completely. It is about being "ruggedly flexible" and overcoming the change.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 2: When faced with a moment of change, respond using the 4Ps framework - pause, process, plan, and only then, proceed.

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 3: Build at least one identity bucket that consists of objective outcomes. Then use the wins from these outcomes to fuel the subjective decisions in your primary identity bucket. (NEEDS REPHRASING)

TAKEAWAY NUMBER 4: Fatigue can be real or fake. You need time and space to rest and recover from real fatigue. But you need to force yourself to get going to quote-unquote 'recover' from fake fatigue.

I highly recommend reading Brad's most recent book, "Master of Change", particularly the chapter on identity buckets because it was literally life-changing for me when I read it.

Brad Stulberg [00:34:03]

The book is available wherever you get books. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your independent bookseller, you can get it in any format. It's on Hard Copy, Audible, Kindle, and you can learn more about me at my website, which is just my name. www.bradstulberg.com. And then the social media platform I'm most active on these days is Instagram, where I'm @bradstulberg, and then I'm also begrudgingly on X @bstulberg.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:34:32]

I'll leave links to Brad's website and social media in the show notes.

Oh, and before we end the episode, here's a sneak preview of what you missed by not becoming a premium member of First Class Founders:

Brad Stulberg [00:34:44]

So [*********], [*********], [*********], those are the Big Three buffers or the Big Three kind of anchors that can help us during periods of intense change.

Yong-Soo Chung [00:34:55]

The details of these Big Three anchors are available in a special segment that I craft exclusively for members of the First Class Founders community. You can listen to it ONLY in the ad-free version of the episode that is available to the premium members via a separate podcast feed.

Additionally, the First Class Founders membership comes with a ton of perks, such as early access to podcast episodes, bonus episodes - including the entire raw, unedited interview, and the ability to Ask Me Anything, and much more!

So, head on over to firstclassfounders.com/join - I'll put the link in the show notes!

Yong-Soo Chung [00:35:36]

Alright, that wraps up today's show!

In the next episode of First Class Founders, I’m doing a deep dive on the concept of leverage, which in my opinion, is the single most important concept and also the most misunderstood concept. Leverage is something that all founders need to think about as they grow their business so don’t miss out!

If you're a new listener and you enjoyed this episode, you can add YOUR voice to the show by leaving me a message on firstclassfounders.com. You can also follow the show by going to FirstClassFounders.com and clicking on the link that matches your preferred podcast player - like Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And, if you wanna connect with me specifically, hit me up on Twitter-slash-X @YongSooChung. I’m still pretty active there! Or , connect with me on one of my other social accounts, listed in the show notes.

One last thing before I go, could you head over to FirstClassFounders.com/review and leave the podcast a five-star review please? A five-star review helps bump the show up in podcast rankings, which helps me get bigger and better guests! I’ll leave a link in the show notes to leave us a 5-star review. Thanks a lot, in advance!

I'll see you on the next episode of First Class Founders.